Commons:Deletion requests/Berlinare Flickr photos by Howie Berlin

This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Berlinare Flickr photos by Howie Berlin

Relisted on Commons:Deletion requests/2007/02/03 -- Bryan (talk to me) 14:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Image:Tilda Swinton.jpg Image:Jude Law.jpg Image:Gwyneth Paltrow.jpg Image:Juliette Binoche.jpg Image:Katja Riemann.jpg Image:Maria Schrader.jpg Image:Meryl Streep.jpg Image:Julie Delpy 2.jpg Image:Hildegard Knef.jpg Image:Woody Harrelson.jpg Image:Woody Harrelson2.jpg Image:Meryl Streep 2006.jpg Image:Heath Ledger 2006.jpg Image:Tom Hanks Poster.jpg Image:Deborah Kara Unger.jpg Image:Denzel Washington.jpg Image:Denzel Washington2.jpg Image:Horst Buchholz.jpg Image:JudeLaw2.jpg Image:Richard Linklater.jpg Image:Kyle MacLachlan Berlinale.jpg Image:Rachel Weisz.jpg Image:Lena Olin.jpgImage:Enemy at the Gates.jpg Image:Julie Delpy.jpg Image:Talented Mr Ripley3.jpg Image:Talented Mr Ripley2.jpg Image:Gwyneth Paltrow2.jpg Image:Weisz3.jpg Image:Ethan Hawke.jpg Image:Juliette Binoche2.jpg Image:Chocolat 2001.jpg Image:Lena Olin3.jpg Image:Lena Olin2.jpg Image:AnthonyHopkins.jpg Image:Hannibal2001.jpg

CC-BY-SA permission is given as "Wikipedia only", the original licence is CC-BY-NC-ND. Panther 13:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete CC-BY-SA has been illegitimately restricted to wikipedia. That#s not CC-BY-SA anymore. --Rtc 14:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Very unclear permission Sanbec ✉ 11:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete not freecopyright--Shizhao 15:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

•  Comment I've sent him a message on flickr. Let see if he replies. / Fred Chess 14:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

He said

hi Fred!

I donT wanna change the license I used. If it works with wikipedia like it was before, it is okay, otherwise delete my pics. I don't care, if someone copy, distribute, etc. my pics, but I don't like the aspect of commercial use of my pictures. Why should anybody make money with them and I dont see a cent? That makes no sense to me, sorry."

Delete

Fred Chess 09:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agreed with Howie that commercial use was allowed as long the pics were max 300px height and width, see the following conversation recorded on my Flickr account, pasted below:

Howie's original response 10 May '06, 2.18pm PDT

• Hi Bobby, I would allow Wikipedia to use my pictures, but I don't wanna change the license on flickR in general. So, if it is good enough: I hereby declare that only wikipedia is allowed to use my pictures under the necessary license. Tell me, if this works, please. Greetz, Howie***"

Arniep's reply 10 May '06, 4.53pm PDT

• "That's great! Thanks! I think if you post a reply on www.flickr.com/photos/howie_berlin/128889594 saying that you agree that a Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license can be used only for your Berlinale photos, that would be proof that you agree, then I can link to this page for each image on Wikipedia. Is this OK?"

Arniep's reply 11 May '06, 6.04am PDT

• "Hi Howie, Thanks for placing a reply. There is a small problem in that you say this license may only be used on Wikipedia, but in effect the license has global implications- the description of the license is:

• to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work
• to make derivative works
• to make commercial use of the work

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/

Basically anyone may do as they wish with the photos as long as they say that you were the creator of the original work. I will understand if you are not happy with this, if you are not I will make sure the images will be deleted on Wikipedia Commons.

Howie's reply 11 May '06, 6.42am PDT

• "Hi again, well the thing is, that I don't like other companies to use my pictures commercially. This makes no sense to me, that other people MAYBE get money for my pics, even if I get my name mentioned... This is strange for me. So, yeah, better delete them on Wikipedia. Thanx. Greetz, Howie***"

Arniep's reply 11 May '06, 7.35am PDT

• "Hi I think the point is that no one could really sell your pictures as the license must always be displayed with them which states that the images are free of royalty payments? Would you be OK perhaps if we used low res versions (say max width height 300px)?"

Howie's reply 11 May '06, 7.58am PDT:

• "Sure!"

Arniep's reply 11 May '06, 8.03am PDT

• "OK, that's great, can you post a short message on www.flickr.com/photos/howie_berlin/128889594 saying that all images must be 300px max height and width otherwise you do not agree to the license. Thanks !"

Arniep's reply 11 May '06, 6.30pm PDT

• "Hi, thanks for posting. Would you like to be credited with your Flickr id or would you want your real name to be used?"

Howie's reply 12 May '06, 3.15am PDT

• "Real name is fine. thanx. Michael Weiner."

Arniep's reply 15 May '06, 8.45am PDT

• "Hi Michael I have uploaded the files I intend to upload to Wikipedia Commons here www.flickr.com/photos/81239542@N00/. All are 300px max width/height, a few are cropped which I hope is OK to make the image usable. Please confirm if you are happy with these."

Howie's reply 15 May '06, 1.01pm PDT

• "everything is fine! enjoy the summer!cheers, Howie***"

I've now sent him another message on flickr. / Fred Chess 19:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

 Comment I'm ready to change my vote if he will set the clear state of these images. --Panther 20:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

 Comment Arniep: Please, provide a link to your flickr account. Sanbec ✉ 07:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It's here. Arniep 18:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

After further discussions with Howie, I get the impression that he doesn't allow commercial use, and that it was a misunderstanding that he ever allowed it, based on the sentence;

Would you be OK perhaps if we used low res versions (say max width height 300px)?"

To which he replied:

Sure!

He has told me he doesn't mind having his images on Wikipedia, but not for any commercial use. So I have to maintain my delete vote.

I've tried to explain to him the cc license and the GFDL license, but the bottom line is that a lot of people don't share Wikipedia's vision of free knowledge, and in such cases it doesn't help to try and circumvent explicit permissions.

Fred Chess 16:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Why did you deliberately miss out a very important part of what I said to him:

• "Hi I think the point is that no one could really sell your pictures as the license must always be displayed with them which states that the images are free of royalty payments? Would you be OK perhaps if we used low res versions (say max width height 300px)?".

Then he said, "Sure". I made it clear that noone could really sell his pictures as they always had to show the license that shows they are free of royalty payments. Arniep 12:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

You make a liberal interpretation. Howie has explicitly said he does not agree to having his photographs used commercially. One may assume that the license CC-BY-SA makes them undesirable for commercial use, but can we guarantee it? If we can't, then they are non-commercial. / Fred Chess 18:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Having checked some photos, the licenses are non-commercial. I will attempt to contact other Wiki sites about this and ask them to claim fair use if applicable.--Jusjih 17:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wait. Bobby Mcdobbin has photos with CC-BY-SA/2.0. Do we have to re-upload?--Jusjih 14:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - Images are for Wikipedia/Commons use only. There is no guarentee for the images would not be used commercially. --|EPO| 15:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

  How about those at [1]?--Jusjih 15:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - People misinterpret different CC licence all the time. I believe this is one of these cases. --Tarawneh 01:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

  Commons:Flickr images suggests that users there may change the copyright license at anytime without logs left.--Jusjih 15:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Clear misinterpretation of the CC. -- Bryan (talk to me) 14:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

•  Comment -- it is possible that I forgot to ask him about the 300 pix width/height restriction earlier. I'm confused sometimes (maybe because I have to deal with a great much of the deletion requests...) I'll send him another message. / Fred Chess 15:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok here we go:

Howard said:

• I am happy if someone uses my pictures for projects like Wikipedia, or public radio website, etc. - people who work on stuff and need pictures for the presentation - that's fine, no matter, which size the picture is. If the copyright and my name is mentioned, all is GOOD!
• if somebody wants to use my pictures, no matter what size they are, they can contact me and buy the rights to produce a brochure or whatever.

BUT what sense does it make, if I publish on Wikipedia, and somebody else makes money (as he/she uses it commercially) out of it???? It makes no sense! Everybody who wants to use my stuff commercially can pay me directly and not somebody else. That makes sense, no? End of letter.

Fred Chess 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm confused. Bobby McDobbin's Flickr images seem to all be CC-by (not even CC-by-sa), whereas Howie Berlin's photos are tagged CC-by-nc-nd. Has the licence for Howie's images been changed on Flickr? Is there any way to verify their original licence (and whose brilliant idea was it to allow Flickr users to change irrevocable licences)? I'm opposed to deletion based on users changing their minds about licences they've willingly and irrevocably chosen. If you want to protect your works, you shouldn't release it under a licence you don't understand. —LX (talk, contribs) 11:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

  Bobby McDobbin's Flickr images, CC-by, seem to reduce the quality of Howie Berlin's photos, CC-by-nc-nd. Howie Berlin seemed to allow CC-by of his photos if the quality has been reduced to limited height and width. Since I am also confused, I have stopped deleting when it is not fully clear. For now, I consider Bobby McDobbin's Flickr images with CC-by fine here but original Howie Berlin's photos with CC-by-nc-nd are no good here.--Jusjih 14:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Deleted. Howie did not allow commercial use of his images with reduced quality. I just asked him! You can see the response in blue text. And two wrongs don't make a right -- Bobby McDobbin must also have misunderstood Howie's permission. / Fred Chess 14:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)